In Milan, at the age of 84 years died Umberto Eco – Italian semiotician, medievalist, philosopher, literary critic and writer. World famous Umberto Eco’s novels have brought him, “Name of the Rose”, “Foucault’s Pendulum”, “Baudolino” and others.
In the Russian-speaking Internet, recalling Eco publish them composed of 14 signs of fascism – and try on them to present-day Russia.
We chatted with a friend and translator of Umberto Eco Helena Kostyukovich on the relationship between literature and politics, and the departure of the writer:
– Literature – a person’s ability to draw in itself other worlds. Even the reader lives many lives, becoming an expert on many things, but the more the writer. Because the person writing makes even a special effort, organizing a meticulously thought. Therefore, in the end, political issues are matters more than urgent, because politics always defines privacy. All great novels, beginning with the ancient Greeks, – a novel about how privacy are global trends era. War or returning home – and as a result we have Odysseus and Penelope. Politics goes through literature. But the political direction in which Eco remained faithful all his life, passed through the thickness of the cultural experience, they escalated the whole culture of the flesh, and they became more entertaining, the interests of the topics of conversation, and so were born of his novels. Therefore politics and life in the literature are inseparable for a decent Italian writer
The Franciscans brandish populist slogans and Dominicans -. It is the Inquisition, conventionally, the KGB
– you say that the “Name of the rose” was the discovery of Soviet or Russian reader with the fall of the Soviet Union. It was just the opening of the West, or that was the essence of the novel, the confrontation smehai reason totalitarian tendencies, as it could be perceived in the politicized time
-? First, it was the Soviet reader 1988 year – the Soviet Union. But coming out of the Soviet Union, a man is shaped by the culture for a long time until the new people were born. I believe that Europe is vague until the novel and slightly less hazy after the appearance, paradoxically, because the novel tells the story of the monks of the XIV century. I am convinced that among the readers very few distinguished Franciscans from the Dominicans. I’m dealing with this, it is clear that the Franciscans brandish populist, relatively speaking, slogans, ie simplification, renunciation of excessive attention to the essential and so on, and the Dominicans – is the Inquisition, relatively speaking, the KGB. It is understood the Italian, but it was not clear to the Russian reader. When it so casually introduced into the thick of European thinking – this is a classic way to draw in the reader’s emotional in the middle of the story – very unexpectedly, he suddenly becomes an expert. Umberto Eco wrote the novel very cleverly, he has always been able to control the levers of literary mechanism. Therefore, Russian, Soviet intelligentsia suddenly appeared in a Catholic convent on the assumption that she knows all sorts of subtleties. It pleased horrible of all, because this came after Europe, she left the Benedictine monasteries.
“The friendly people” get inside the monastery
the Abbey in the “Name of the rose” – is a Benedictine abbey, it Franciscans accepted as such refugees, people seeking political asylum after the revolution, that they fell, these same half-brother – I came up with the word half brother , he was not in Russian, an Italian word, it was not his analogy, I suggested it, like many other words, to recreate the Italian liturgy, European. And the Dominicans – is inquisitors, they enter the army, “polite people” get inside the monastery and begin to direct their orders. These three bodies are between a complex political game ever since. Russian reader to the participants of this game, and from the middle. It’s very flattering, it seemed very interesting, it suggests more reading, I am sure that people read more books after they got into this proposed Umberto Eco game situation and entered the monastery along with its characters. I believe that knowledge of Europe was eventually reward was a lure, a treat for those who read.
We, too, through laughter tried to refute sour pile nonsense
– That is, basically, an educational thing? Because I remember my experience when I young man read, I would say that common sense and laughter defeat heavy ideology, and it is in this sense, the book was read, it can be applied to relevance because the analogy is clearly visible.
– Yes, laughter was the chief. My university’s time came in a time when almost no one is planted, although we have a few people of our friends were in jail, who for self-publishing, who for some alleged crimes, then put Meylaha, Azadovsky in Leningrad. This shows that our hihonki actually may be something serious. But mostly, we giggled. My friends at the university, very close, for one of them I got married, the company Philology of Moscow, composed a rock opera called “Pavlik Morozov, a superstar.” If you just go to the internet, you will find that this is a subject of worship. It was a parody of “Jesus Christ Superstar”, the opera, which in the Soviet Union it was impossible to buy, you can overwrite. Joy, joy consisted in the fact that we came up with other words, the interpretation of Soviet reality, it turned out very funny. We, too, through laughter tried to deny all of this sour, nasty, heavy pile of nonsense that surrounded us. There is the perception of something serious as the material for mockery and derision comes after the overthrow of itself, no longer need to try especially, we felt it too. I think, then I ran into this book, with no contract, no agreement, no hope to publish nothing but the book copy. Firstly, it gave endless pleasure to the person who likes to make yourself bad, that is, I, for example. Because the translator, who translates the text is very complex, it becomes a slave to this work, there is practically no other pleasures, but to solve the problem. Well, I think we for this we live.
In Umberto Eco’s always someone then went into the mist
– and still affects the coverage, for example, he writes, “Baudolino” of the Middle Ages, the campaigns of Frederick Barbarossa, and at the same time appeals to most every second policy. At the time the lists were widely circulated “bushizmy” Bush’s statements, which are attributed to him, that he collects them
-. Yes, he collected them. History – is an attempt to interpret it. That is in itself history eludes us. We even tell his story can not, our lives can not tell, because we forget the details and build it under some formula which came up with themselves. European history can not be told in detail, namely, details make all the culture broth. Accordingly, he comes up with a great liar Baudolino that fiction puts in first place above all other values, so it can be dishonest, morally nechistoploten, he makes several terrible mistakes for which the then awful repents and becomes a recluse, Stylites, climbs a pole. No one has finished reading, I think, until the latter part, the funniest when he’s sitting on the pole and feeds the worms – and then he is off his tears and walked away. In Umberto Eco’s always someone then went into the fog. Because his favorite movie – “Casablanca”, remember how they go arm in arm, and “is the beginning of a great friendship.” They go into the fog, and the end for Eco meaning-he just liked him very much. Now he has left itself to the same. I simply very well imagine, because of that I worked so hard to talk about it. I was tormented by the details of our conversations, meetings, and what I read from his writings. I imagine that a bunch of parts, all the meat of life, and is very difficult to him organize the first day.
People who do not know the geography, in positions , which define the geography
– once again, I ask about politics when he did not like some politicians, he does not like for some ideological differences, or annoyed ignorance, lack of education, he has been the aesthetic differences with these people
-? That stylistic as Sinyavsky said. You’ve come to a point, yes, Bush irritated him that he was a fool on the throne, uneducated. The fact is that the more uneducated people governing us, the more we are in greater danger. It is so simple that even funny. We do not want to have treated us the dentist teeth that are uneducated on the teeth. That would be terrible, we would have gone from this dentist shouting: No, you do not need us, study first teeth. Why should we resign ourselves to the fact that are run by people who do not know geography? It’s too bad that people who do not know the geography, manage to capture the position in which they define the geography.
I would leaflets scatter with the text on the streets
– In one interview you said that Umberto Eco knew about Russia when you meet him nothing. It is interesting, most recently in the Russian-speaking facebook all the time to try on Russia 14 signs of fascism, compiled by Umberto Eco – with the known result, a lot of the same
-. Yes, the same, but it is about Russia I did not think at all. First, no signs in Russian fascism was not especially seen when he was writing in 1995 year. He really understands the mechanism of universal, rather pernicious for mankind complex thoughts, from which comes out in the end a great misfortune and war. He judged that the full amount of signs on the basis of, first of all, of course, Nazism, Italian Fascism, which had been through this wonderful country, been through and went on. He believed that every country will sooner or later fall into this trouble, and then out of it somehow goes. And the fact that it is now applied to Russia, naturally, because, really, there were those same typological developments and processes. All right, that it is used, but it is not then and not on how it was written. I would generally scatter leaflets with the text in all the streets, I think that for this shoot will be. Although, I repeat, this text is not about that, and if not written. After all, what is written about the totalitarian situation, when ingested whatever text from the outside, it is perceived as subversive, gospel, including, in my time – this is not so, but I think it’s a perversion of the essence of Christianity – what is being done Orthodoxy. Well, it’s none of my business.
In the 20 years he was in the Union of Catholic youth, and 84 do not want to be in the church were buried.
– in recent years, he was interested in what is happening in Russia, in Europe
-? you know, not, in his last years it is not interested, he became a skeptic. After living such a long life, we, too, you will be skeptics. He knew a lot of people, because I read the book and come to the conclusion that it is already not interested in these details, because everything is more or less clear. And if you ask about religion, I can say that it was interesting. In one interview I had at the time was taking – not published in the end, I did not have a couple of interviews published with him – he suddenly began to talk about his Catholic youth. He was a member of the Italian Catholic youth organization. Then I froze in amazement, he said: “This can not be the way you really believe in all this.?”. “Yes”. “And why do you fit into the team?”. “Because we’re going to change the world, not necessarily as the Red Brigades, in some other way. You do not understand, it is clear that you did not live in it.” And we did, I remember a long time talking about what a religious person. I said: “For us, it was impossible.” “Yes, but the situation was completely different from you, you grew up in a different way.” And now I have just learned that the funeral will not be religious, that rare thing for Italy. Burial will be in the Castle Sforza Tuesday is Milan, the whole town will come, I know it is quite hard, plus the President will arrive in Italy and all other nomenclature. Eco lived tremendous changes in this sense. A man of 20 years was a member of the Union of Catholic youth, and 84 wrote a will that he did not want to be in the church were buried.
You did tkni , he’ll just such a hook
– his character was difficult
-? his character was playful, he loved to turn out to such an extent that all scared. All these 30 years – I have something to tell him, he retorted that I was then and long itched. We would like, it may be that something so quick to respond to all gasped, but we do not have at this moment, we are only on the stairs then I know that I had to answer, but Professor Eco no – you did tkni , he’ll just such a hook that you sit and think as he quickly realized all? He even wanted to entertain others and himself, he missed. You know, there is such a book “Cartons Minerva.” These cartons – he wrote jokes on matches and the matches were called “Minerva”, to open them as an envelope, he loved them very much. Matches he used for smoking, which all his life fond of, and on the cover, he wrote funny things. Eco sits at the meeting – I had to come to this in Soviet times at universities – and in Italy, too, is unbearable – you sit and listen to all this crap, they say, draw on paper some of his pocherkushki. That is “Cartons Minerva.” But he was always with the meaning and sense of humor. Actually, he was terribly funny.
Now, really died Eco, which we all previous told
– I’ll come back to care in the mist. You are told in other interviews that Eko worked night felt wrong, and then he left, called it the death of the righteous, “got into a boat and sailed away,” I will quote you. He realized that he was leaving? He was afraid that
-? I just do not know. I translated the book “The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana”, where the hero dies twice, once for fun, the other – for real. Until he died pretend he did not know what fun is dead, he tells the whole story of how he died. Then the hero dies in earnest. And now we have three finals – now truly dead Eco, which we told all the previous – this triple design, matryoshka. So, how do we know what he was thinking? He’s somewhere in there, I mean, not in the religious sense, I just think that he is somewhere playing with her favorite things, there may be even sees, hears, understands, but we will never be able to reach and take those interviews. Therefore, we can only see what he had to say on this subject. But before he could say that, if prepared, then all will be right. This he had learned from the ancient philosophers. I did not think that I would have all day today to think and talk about his departure. However, recently re-read this literature, that this ancient preparation to death, not hysterical. The ancient notion was: death is inevitable, it is necessary, it should be very well thought out, the implications of this case for ourselves and for our families, for humanity, finally. I guess that Eco, a philosopher, a man with a great sense of humor, all of this many times through you a ride, and then wrote “The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana”, a book that we may die in childhood, we die to ourselves, somewhere there where we were born, go through the same path on the contrary, or rather, we are just in it find ourselves, we need to reflect on all that we have done and we can leave to others, all things fall into place, but not completely, because I have something to leave to new people, so that they, too, something somewhere to put it. A de facto, that watched his loved ones on that day, was the fact that I was told he worked, to mourn, and then lay down and then left. That is all it was, without any shame, pain, anguish, all these troubles, which we set for ourselves are afraid
This is his personal story -. Boy whose partisans invited to play funeral music
– That is his attitude to death – it is not even the Roman stoicism is Socrates, apparently
– I think so. I do not know what to say, I agree. His attitude towards life is more interesting, I think. Here I want to introduce another new small topic. Yes, he was a cynic and a joker. But in every novel, there is a scene incredibly straight, obscenely romantic, naked, and there he gets Eco. When you talk to people about Eco hear stupidity once. Ah, how do you cope with all these Masons, Illuminati conspirators?